Gustaw napisał(a):
Luka3350 napisał(a):
Ale żadna studnia czy inne trudności nie ma porównania z tym co robi z psychiką pionowy zacisk plytowy.
O tym uświadomił mnie już wcześniej Kilerus dając obrazowy przykład z jakiejś jaskini beskidzkiej czy też jurajskiej. Podał nawet linki do swoich fotek z tamtego miejsca. Był to rodzaj lejka o jednokierunkowej możliwości przejścia, rodzaj pułapki na tęgich grotołazów ...
Muszę odszukać ten jego post to zapodam link ...
EDYCJA:
O tutaj ...
Jaskinia Dująca (?)
http://www.forum.turystyka-gorska.pl/vi ... owa#164277Było cosik ostatnio w mediach o 2009 edycji nagród Darwina i tak czytając sobie te historyjki wdepnąłem na taką jedną ciekawą ...
http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2009-15.htmlCytuj:
25 November 2009, Utah) As is true of many other Darwin Awards, the unfortunate demise of John J. is a cautionary tale that may save the lives of others.
Nutty Putty Cave, named for its soft brown clay, was discovered in 1960. This naturally formed thermal cave is 1400 feet long, narrow, with multiple passageways and room-size openings. To explore Nutty Putty Cave, spelunkers must have experience, or travel with a guide. These rules were imposed in 2006 after six incidents of people getting stuck in its narrow passages, requiring rescue.
By all accounts, John, 26, was an experienced caver. This avid explorer lived a life of adventure, including spelunking in vertical caves more difficult than Nutty Putty. John was aware of the dangers, but perhaps his full life had made him a bit overconfident. Once his group was inside the cave, John split off and navigated a solo path. At the end of a difficult stretch of passages that twisted and turned in sharp angles over uneven ground, he found an unmapped finger and tried to squeeze his 6-foot tall, 200-pound body through the opening.
When a narrow passage must be navigated, spelunkers know that the safest method is feet-first, making it easier to climb back out. John slithered into the 10"x18" opening head-first, and there he remained, jammed in the tiny slot.
He was located, of course. Nutty Putty Cave is small enough that one cannot stay missing for long. All told, 137 people were involved in the exhausting rescue effort, using air-powered tools and a system of pulleys and ropes to extract the caver. Despite their best efforts, the crevice was too small to accomodate a rescue. John was wedged in an area where the cave peters down to nothing, and nothing could be done.
After 26 hours, he expired.
John J. was not the first to get stuck in Nutty Putty Cave, but he will be the last. To the consternation of many caving enthusiasts, the mouth of the cave was sealed with concrete on December 3, 2009, permanently entombing the body of the erstwhile caver. Cavern explorers had hoped that authorities would seal only the dangerous corridor enclosing his remains.
Dale Green, the 80-year-old who discovered the cave, said that spelunking is like mountain climbing. "It's as safe as you want to make it."
SIDEBAR: "Although many people enjoy this pursuit safely, the National Speleological Society warns that the dangers of spelunking include falling down pits, being crushed by rocks, drowning, hypothermia, and slowly starving to death. They add that 'the rewards are worth the misery and risks.'"
I zainteresował mnie temat bo pamiętałem o tej Jaskinii Dującej i tym płytowym zacisku więc zacząłem szperać dalej ... i po przeczytaniu trochę więcej szczegółowych informacji ten cały wypadek w Nutty Putty wcale nie wygląda na tak idiotyczny ... facet popełnił chyba jeden fundamentalny błąd próbując ekspolorować ten pochyły zacisk de facto w pojedynkę bez uprzęży i asekuracji ... to go zgubiło ...
http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/w szczególności
http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/MLDeathQuestions.htmlCytuj:
I remember the caves from my BYU days. I guess what I don't understand is why the family decided to leave the body there. Is there no way (and I know this is a little gross to think about) to get his body out after a little time has passed? I am also confused why if the rescuers had made progress until the pulley failed, why they didn't hook up another pulley at the time? I thought the caves were awesome when I went but I didn't go through any part that I feared myself or anybody else in our party getting stuck so maybe I am just not understanding the logistics? As a law student, I can appreciate that the liability in owning the cave/allowing it to be used must be huge and a waiver would help, but "good" lawyers will always be able to squirm around a waiver, particularly if there has already been a death. So I guess I don't really know what to do about leaving the caves open (although I find the closing somewhat disappointing) unless there was a massive insurance policy in place but I am confused about the logistics of the body. I also wanted to ask how common it is to wedge yourself so tight that you literally cannot get out. That seems so horrifying to me. I was always taught to go "feet first" into anything that looked remotely tight; would this advice have helped John?
Marissa Lees - Salt Lake City, Utah
Marissa: You have asked some really great questions. Let me take them one by one...
I guess what I don't understand is why the family decided to leave the body there.
A) The family was not really given another option. It was felt that further recovery attempts the following day and second day would have been too risky to the recovery team and the body would not have been able to be retrieved in one piece. From my viewpoint I feel that they very unselfishly accepted that reality and agreed to leave John’s body in the cave.
Is there no way (and I know this is a little gross to think about) to get his body out after a little time has passed?
A) Yes there is a way, but when the decision was made it was felt that it would be difficult and that the remains might slide further down into the passage. Nobody in the room, that I could tell, could reasonably make a good determination given what we had all been through. In subsequent days, I heard a few proposals of ideas, but none of which could take place until more decomposition has been accomplished, and that meant more time. I had the current decomposition process explained to me and yes it was gross and I do not care to relay the details here.
I am also confused why if the rescuers had made progress until the pulley failed, why they didn't hook up another pulley at the time?
A) Another rigging was completed, but by the time it was ready to go John had given up strength and without his ability to help it was just not possible to move him.
I thought the caves were awesome when I went but I didn't go through any part that I feared myself or anybody else in our party getting stuck so maybe I am just not understanding the logistics?
A) That is not really a question, but I understand your confusion.After reading the articles and hearing the news stories, much of the information regarding his location were not reported accurately. John was exploring a passage that is not on the map and you have to go out of your way to locate it and try to crawl. Very few people have been up there and he was crawling along head first.
As a law student, I can appreciate that the liability in owning the cave/allowing it to be used must be huge and a waiver would help, but "good" lawyers will always be able to squirm around a waiver, particularly if there has already been a death.
A) If John’s remains are ever recovered, that is not an automatic sign that cavers can once again explore the cave.
So I guess I don't really know what to do about leaving the caves open (although I find the closing somewhat disappointing) unless there was a massive insurance policy in place but I am confused about the logistics of the body.
A) Are you confused as to the actual location? It is more learly shown on the 1965 map than the newer 2004 offering.But even still, the 1965 map rendering is just a best guess because that passage was so small that it was never fully explored. Here is a cropped image I made to help you better visualize where John’s body is located. Download the older map and put it in perspective.
I also wanted to ask how common it is to wedge yourself so tight that you literally cannot get out. That seems so horrifying to me.
I have wedged myself several times in passages, but never in one that did not have a smaller person ahead of me talking me through it and somebody behind me also talking me through it. Claustrophobia is very real and I experience it when I do not have enough light, and/or my vision of what is ahead is limited due to my helmet blocking my view. I have resolved this by entering tight passages with a handheld light as well as my headlamp. When I am twisted such that I cannot see I often panic and I have to force myself to calm down. This is where I have others by me to talk me out of my paniced condition. I don’t care what they talk to me about, but I have to have them talk me through it. I train those near me to listen for my voice and my breathing for differences that might indicate panic. It is more rare nowadays, but I still vividly remember those first trips to Nutty Putty back in 1993.
Since this has turned into a confessional of sorts, let me take a moment and share with you my return to the cave earlier this year before its re-opening. I went with my two sons Adam (15) and Aaron (11). Both of them are much smaller than me and Adam had first explored the cave when he was about 8 years old. We looked down in the entry from above and could see several large boulders down in the bottom. I did not remember these from my earlier visits, the most recent of which was about 3 years prior.
I dropped down into the opening and there was no room to move around. Instead of standing on earth, you stood on boulders and looked down at the 14” tall x 21” wide entry hole. Adam went through without a hitch and unlocked the gate. I noticed that he had to lay on these rocks and then slid head first into the hole... And he made it look easy. Our littlest son Aaron went next with great excitement with no issues. Both of them were waiting inside. I then laid down on the rocks and had to bend my knees so that my lower legs were straight upwards. I scooched forward downhill and made the decision to have one arm ahead and one on my side. Gravity pulled me downward and with my head entering the passage my shoulders wedged and I started to panic .It had been a few years since I had experienced this feeling, but my heart started racing and my breathing quickened and I could not do anything. I was wedged in an awkward downward position and I literally freaked out. Sweating and agitated I could not go forward and gravity was holding me in place. I wiggled my legs and hips and used my hand that was outside the opening to help inch my way backwards and upwards.
It took me about a minute to get back out of the opening and I was so disappointed in myself. I was drenched with panic sweat and still visibly shaking. I began to breath deeply and slower trying to regain my composure. Before I knew it, Adam’s head came poking out of the opening to see if I was okay. I knew that I would be fine, but I assessed the situation and realized what had really happened.
The entry passage had been partially filled with boulders by those frustrated that there was a gate on the cave. These large 2’x2’x1’ stones had been rolled into the throat of the opening and this is why the space at the bottom was so much more cramped than I remembered. I decided that our new goal for the day was to figure out how to remove these rocks so that people 6’6” 220 pounds could lay flat on the ground and more easily enter the cave. On subsequent trips we removed all of those large boulders and made sure that they were put far away from the opening so that it would not be easy to roll them back into the hole.
So why have I shared all of this? It was good for me to rethink about my latest feelings of claustrophobia. It also helped me to relate just a bit with what John must have endured for over 25 hours before he passed. I cannot think of a more painful and excruciating way to die.
I was always taught to go "feet first" into anything that looked remotely tight; would this advice have helped John?
As the rescuers related to me, John never would have made it through all of the twist and turns backwards. He made it quite a ways head first and was probably feeling a great deal of success until the final downward slide from which he couldn’t return. Your advice to go feet first is very wise and yet not really practical for long yet unexplored passages because you have to be able to see your options as you crawl through. If you were really set on exploration of unmapped passages, then you would probably rig up the tiniest and strongest person in the group with a harness and ropes so that he/she could be easily retrieved and do it a s a group exploration project. Then you would send the rigged little guy carefully into the passage always being able to get them back out. John Jones was involved in solo free exploring without any rigging.
PS
Mikro OT.
Jak się Wam podoba pojęcie "spelunking".
Mi się trochę dziwnie kojarzy ...
Spelunking i Nutty Putty ->
http://www.climb-utah.com/WM/nutty.htm"Definicja" ->
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-spe3.htmCytuj:
[Q] From Austin: How did the word Spelunking come about? I know that it means exploring caves, but I have no idea how it came to be or why it means that.
Cytuj:
Within caving circles, I’m told, spelunker now means an untrained and unknowledgeable amateur explorer; the more experienced prefer to term themselves cavers, which is also the usual British term. Scientists and cavers who explore with serious purpose continue to call themselves speleologists.
No i na koniec ->
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... spelunking Cytuj:
the act of exploring for the missing condom after deep penetration
PS2
Koniec Nutty Putty ...
http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_13919224Cytuj:
Nutty Putty cave sealed with concrete
By Jason Bergreen
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 12/04/2009 12:09:24 AM MST
The mouth of Nutty Putty Cave was sealed with concrete Thursday, turning the cavern's 1,400 feet of chutes and tunnels into the final resting place of 26-year-old John Jones.
Jones became stuck in the Utah County cave Nov. 25 and died after a 27-hour effort by more than 135 rescuers to free him from a crevice.
The Utah County Public Works Department used explosives earlier this week to collapse part of the cave's ceiling, blocking an entrance deep inside near where Jones' body remains stuck, said John Andrews, the chief legal counsel and associate director for the School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration, which owns the property.
On Thursday, the throat of the narrow cave, a 7-foot deep, 30-inch wide hole, was filled with concrete, Andrews said. Sheriff Jim Tracy told Andrews that no other parts of the cave were damaged while the cave was sealed.
The closure of the cave is not physically irreversible, Andrews said, but there are no plans to revisit the decision to close it.
"It is permanently closed from our standpoint," he said.
Jones' body remains where he became stuck, in a thin finger of the cave near the end of the main passage about 100 feet below the surface and 400 feet from the entrance.
The Stansbury Park man entered the tight passage as he and a group of family and friends fanned out to explore the cave. He was trapped head first at a 70-degree angle, with much of his waist and torso pinched in a 10-inch-wide space, authorities said.
Rescuers briefly pulled the former Brigham Young University student from the crevice using a pulley system and ropes tied to his feet, but he slipped back into the tight space when an anchor broke free of the cave wall.
Jones was not injured in the second fall, but struggled to breathe about two hours later. When he fell silent, rescuers with medical training pushed a stethoscope in the crevice and could not find a pulse. Jones was pronounced dead at 11:57 p.m. He is thought to have died of the effects of the constant pressure on his body.
The popular cave, discovered by Dale Green in 1960, attracted up to 10,000 people a year, despite its remote access at the top of a hill west of State Road 68. It was named for its soft brown "nutty putty" clay.
There have been five high-profile rescues in the cave in the past 10 years, and it was closed temporarily in 2004 after two people got stuck in separate incidents within a week of each other.
Andrews said SITLA will work with Jones' family concerning any future memorial on the site. So far, no specific plans have been finalized.